Trent's RV14 Build: Engine Overhaul: I bought an engine!

Where do you even buy an engine?

So, you are up to the finish kit and have heard rumours about engines taking 2-3 years to be delieverd, so think "I better get something organised!". Easy, right?

The first step for me was to start looking at the Van's pricing and lead times. At the time of writing this post, engine lead times have come back a little to around 18 months for a 'normal' stock engine, and 14 months for a Thunderbolt engine.

When i initially started looking, around a year or so ago, the times were a lot longer than this. Around 36 months (3 years) for a standard engine, and 2 for a Thunderbolt.

If you are prepared to wait for an engine through Lycoming, the prices have become eye watering! In the analysis below, the prices have been converted to AUD at a rate of 0.63 AUD/USD, along with tax and an estimate of shipping costs.

Buying from Van's

To buy an engine direct from Lycoming, through Van's, the following prices are correct as at the time of this post:

IO360 Angle Valve (200hp IO360-A1B6) - $58,427 USD or $107,000 AUD
IO390 Standard (210hp IO390-A3B6) - $59,776 USD or $109,600 AUD
IO390 EXP119 (215hp IO390-EXP119) - $63,483 or $116,081 AUD

The above prices are for a stock engine, with no permitted changes. Since i want to install the SDS EFI system, i would have to get these as they come, then remove the fuel system, mags etc myself. The engine would not be run on the SDS system until installed on the airframe. (I would prefer it run on SDS by the engine shop if possible).

The other option is to go Thunderbolt. These allow for the removal of the fuel and ignition systems (the prices below reflect this). Thunderbolt engines used to be about $5k more expensive, but these days are around $18k more expensive!

IO360 Angle Valve (200hp IO360-A1B6) - $68,989 USD or $125,695AUD
IO390 Standard (210hp IO390-A3B6) - $70,337 USD or $128,048 AUD
IO390 EXP119 (215hp IO390-EXP119) - $74,045 or $134,523 AUD

Van's would need a 25% deposit up front - so around 27k sitting in their accounts for a couple of years. The price was also subject to both the legal proceedings going on at Van's, as well as the dollar fluctuation.

Even the cheapest engine from Van's is just too expensive for me. This would make the engine more than 50% of the total cost of the aeroplane.

Where else do you go?

Aerosport

With the above prices, combined with the horrible lead times, i decided to look elsewhere. We had an Aerosport IO375 installed in our One Design, and it went great. With the excellent customer service from Aerosport, I decided to start there.

Unfortunately, Darren indicated the following:

Good morning Trent.

I sympathize with you. I never like to say no to possible customers, but I also do not want to sell you something that may not work for you and that is certainly more important than a few more engine sales.

Yes, the angle valve IO-360 (200HP) series engine will work for you and they are a whole lot easier to come by than a 390 core. I do not have cores right now to build angle valve engines from and unfortunately don't really have the time to search for them. Once we start to get ahead of the current orders that we have right now, maybe I will have time. We have also discussed hiring someone to specifically search for cores. We simply aren't there as of yet.

We could build you a front governor IO-375 with the Superior cold air horizontal induction engine, but as it is based on the parallel valve IO-360 (180HP not 200HP) there will be a long list of differences. Weight will be 20-30 lbs lighter (how does this affect weight/balance), baffling, exhaust will also be different.

Running the parallel valve series engines on this airframe will send you down a path away from plans and deep into fabricating and R&D.

Respectfully,

Darren Jones

So Aerosport was unable to help! This was a big shame, becuase i had always thought going and doing their build school would be an excellent experience!

Where else?

Lycon

Next on the list was Lycon. They indicated that they could build me an IO390 from an overhauled core, with a front governor. The price with standard fuel injection and magnetos would be $39,875 for the engine overhaul itseld, then another $25,000 USD for a used engine core! Total was $64,875 USD or approx $118,511 AUD!

This was for an engine which was not new, but an overhauled core. They also needed 50% deposit, UP front, but lead time was only around 10 weeks. This was still close to 60k to send overseas to a shop i had never physically visited (they have a great reputation).

Barrett

Next up was to email Rhonda at Barrett's. We spent around a month of going back and forward while she tried to find a suitable case and a suitable crank and came back with the following:

The engine will be built using a set of Superior roller tappet engine cases, a small main LIO-360 crankshaft, 77450 connecting rods and counterweights, accessory case, new Lycoming IO-390 cylinders with stock 8.9:1 compression piston, and a Lycoming 200 hp sump. For quoting purposes the engine will have standard Slick magnetos, your choice of fuel injection, and a starter.

We can, however, install electronic ignition, electronic fuel injection, alternator and prop governor for you should you wish. I have quoted some of those items as upgrades below and am happy to discuss these in greater detail with you.

The engine will be built to Factory New Limits, and we will replace all mandatory replacement parts at overhaul per Lycoming SB 240W. We will also comply with all Service Bulletins that apply to any parts used in the engine build.

We will dynamically balance the rotating assembly, paint the engine your choice of color, Mil-Spec plate all external hardware and test the engine for a minimum of 1 hour after assembly. We will preserve the engine after testing and will crate the engine for secure shipment to you. Oklahoma has no sales tax on aircraft parts.

The price for all of the above was $64,992 USD or $118,716 AUD (almost identical to Lycon). It would have a left turning crank shaft (which i was not sure of the impact of). The lead time was appox 11 months, and they also needed 50% deposit up front.

What to do?

Of all of the above choices, Lycon was probably the best lead time to cost ratio. But honestly, this was all a bit too much for me cost wise. I went through a bit of a crisis, thinking that i was never going to get my project complete. What an idiot i am for not just buying everyting at once at the start, when the doller was 0.75 AUD/USD etc.

But who has that kind of lump sum laying around?

The Overhaul Route

The other route which was available to me, was to buy a suitable older engine and have it overhauled. There was almost zero chance that i would be able to find an old IO390 for sale, but there are always IO360's about. But what kind of engine? Van's doesn't give much guidance for this, however, back in December 2015 they posted on their facebook page the following information (bold emphasis is mine):

SELECTING AN ENGINE FOR THE RV-14/14A
The RV-14/14A was designed around (follow closely now) the Lycoming IO-390-A3B6. This is a:
• four-cylinder
• horizontally-opposed (the “O” in “IO”)
• horizontally-inducted
• fuel-injected (the “I” in “IO”)
• angle-valve
• normally-aspirated
engine rated at 210 hp
This engine is comparatively new and is found almost exclusively in the Experimental market. It hasn’t had the need or time to mutate into the bewildering variety of versions that older Lycoming designs have achieved. The version we sell – the IO-390A3B6 – is configured with a standard Lycoming sump, Bendix-style injection, Slick magnetos and a forward mounted prop governor. Because very few IO-390s appear on the used market, we can assume that any IO-390 in an RV-14/14A will have been purchased from Van’s and will fit the RV-14 without trouble.
ENTER THE IO-360
It’s been apparent from the beginning that the IO-360 Lycoming engine is so similar in configuration, weight and power to the IO-390 that it might also be suitable. We decided to try this when we built our RV-14 prototype and have found that this engine is indeed a good match to the RV-14 airframe.
Since the IO-360 is available on the used market for prices far less than a new IO-390, it is an attractive option for builders who are on a more limited budget. It also opens up a new can of worms.

First, we have to define some terms. There are THREE completely different kinds of IO-360:
• the common Lycoming parallel valve four cylinder engine, usually rated at 180 hp. They can be horizontally or vertically inducted.
• the completely different Lycoming angle-valve four-cylinder engine rated at 200 hp. These are always (dare we say that?) horizontally inducted.
• the Continental IO-360 six-cylinder engine rated at 210 hp with the induction system mounted on top of the engine.
For the RV-14 the only suitable IO-360 is the Lycoming angle-valve 200 hp version.
This engine has been production for decades and when we wanted to test a 200 hp version of the RV-14, we installed an IO-360-A1D6 in our RV-14 taildragger prototype – simply because we already had one. It is working well – physically it fits fine, produces plenty of power and works well with the weight/balance envelope.
The IO-360 exists in a bewildering variety of versions. Only some of them will work.
One of the most important red flags is the location of the propeller governor. The IO-360-A1D6, like the IO-390, has the governor mounted on the front left side of the crankcase. Many, probably the majority, of IO-360s have governors mounted on the rear accessory case, where it physically interferes with the steel engine mount/nose gear of the RV-14A and causes many ducting/wiring/routing problems for the RV-14. From what we can tell, it is not feasible to convert a rear governor engine to the forward governor configuration. We recommend that RV-14 builders avoid IO-360s with rear-mounted governors.
Some IO-360s have been removed from aerobatic airplanes and are equipped with different sumps and induction systems. We have not investigated, let alone prototyped, any such engine and recommend anybody contemplating putting one in an RV-14/14A do some serious homework before they buy.
There are two or three companies building Lycoming “clones” – engines similar to, but probably not identical to, the Lycoming. These engines can come in almost any configuration the buyer wishes, but again, Van’s has never seen most of these engines, and has certainly never investigated which, if any, of the many available versions might work in the RV-14/14A.
To summarize, we recommend that RV-14/14A builders choose Lycoming-type engines that are
• four-cylinder
• horizontally-opposed
• horizontally-inducted
• angle-valve
• normally-aspirated
• forward-governor
• standard Lycoming sump
and rated between 200-210 horsepower.
The only engine that Van’s sells that meets all those criteria is the IO-390-A3B6. The 200 hp IO-360-A1B6 engine we sell for the RV-7/8 is a rear governor engine, and unsuitable for the RV-14/14A.
Builders contemplating buying an engine from some source other than Van’s will be responsible for making sure their engine is suitable. Calling Van’s for information (“I’ve found an IO-360-X4B12?# out of an Egyptian Air Force Malmo-Boero. Will it work?”) will not help. Contact Lycoming or an expert engine shop for details of a given model, and insist on seeing photos or examining the engine to determine whether it will work.

Facebook Engine Shop to the Rescue!

So knowing all of this, I put out the feelers and started to get back ads from mates for various engines. One was a IO360-A1B6 for 30k (with logbooks), but this has a rear-mounted prop governor. I delved into the deep well of research, was able to figure out that the engine *might* work with the taildragger version of the RV14 (it would most definitely not work with the nose dragger). I ended up sending the guy a message, and he told me the engine was sold! I took too long researching.

Then the following ad appeared for an IO360-C1E6:

Not wanting to miss out again, i sent the guy a message. While waiting for a response, i got into some research on what this engine actually was. From Lycoming Publication SSP-110-2, i was able to backwards work out:

IO-360-C1E6
Same as the C1C but with different magnetos. This model also has a propeller governor drive on the left front of its crankcase and has a crankshaft equipped with one 6.3 order and one 8th order counterweight.
IO-360-C1C
Same as the C1B but with a 14-degree fuel injector inlet adapter and an impulse coupling Bendix S4LN-1227 magneto.
IO-360-C1B
Same as the C1A but with Bendix 1200 series magnetos.
IO-360-C1A
Same as the A1A but with a rear-mounted injector.
IO-360-A1A
200 hp (149 kW) at 2700 rpm, Minimum fuel grade 100 or 100LL avgas, compression ratio 8.70:1. The base fuel-injected model, a four-cylinder air-cooled, horizontally opposed, direct-drive, fuel-injected, tuned induction engine with oil jet internal piston cooling. It includes provision for single-action controllable-pitch propeller.
In other words, this engine is:

200 hp (149 kW) at 2700 rpm, Minimum fuel grade 100 or 100LL avgas, compression ratio 8.70:1. A four-cylinder air-cooled, horizontally opposed, direct-drive, fuel-injected, tuned induction engine (rear-mounted injector) with oil jet internal piston cooling. It includes provision for single-action controllable-pitch propeller. This model also has a propeller governor drive on the left front of its crankcase and has a crankshaft equipped with one 6.3 order and one 8th order counterweight.

This was the only photo i had of the engine - it is indeed a forward mounted prop governor, and a rear induction sump.

So, other than the rear mounted injector (air intake), this engine seemed like it was going to work! We agreed on a price, and i sent 15k to the gods with my fingers crossed!

Some initial information about the engine

While i was waiting to get the engine picked up, Joel from suncoast went and visited the engine and had a quick look at the case. He reported that it had only a single stamp on the case, meaning that it had likely been overhauled once, and it was in it's second life. It unfortunately had no logooks however.

Hayden was also kind enough to pull the engine down and run a dial indicator on the front flange of the crankshaft, and reported that the runout was only 0.002", which was in service limits. So far, the engine is looking good!

Actually going to get the engine!

The engine was in the shop at HP Engines, a shop run by Hayden Pullen in Coomera, near the Gold Coast in Queensland. I happened to be up there for work, and had a day to spare, so went to his shop and picked the engine up. Turns out it can fit in the Kia Carnivale hire car!

A suprise!

When picking up the engine, I noticed that the engine was not fitted with a sump. There was a forward injection sump sitting on the pallet with the engine, with no tags and no dataplates. It came with a box of associated parts, such as the fuel servo etc. In the box were also set of indiction tubes. Have to do some research on those.

The engine was sold to the facebook seller by Suncoast Aero Engines in Caloundra QLD, so i contacted Joel at Suncoast to see if he knew anything about the sump. He was not totally aware, but suggested that the previous manager, Greg, likely swapped the sump out for a forward induction sump (more on that in a future post!).

Weirdly, one of the tubes had a dent and a hole drilled in it.

Stopping at Bunnings

After picking up the engine, i stopped off at Bunnings on the way and wrapped up the engine and strapped it to the pallet. The pallet was dropped off for carriage back to Melbourne.